Thursday, 6 July 2017

Why Rangers will NOT be stripped of any titles...

Article by: Greg, for Ibrox Noise

In what has been a pretty bad week for the club, the Supreme Court released its judgment on the infamous “big tax case”.

Before anyone could have a chance to properly read it, fans of the rest of Scottish football clambered all over their website to get a peek at what it said and they subsequently crashed it.

Without any hesitation, they then proceeded to cry for title stripping. An act of removing all titles won by Rangers during the EBT years to somehow boost their relevance. Yes, I have seen Dundee fans claim they are due the 2003 Scottish Cup and that relegated teams in the same years should never have been relegated.

The issue here, for petty Celtic fans anyway, is that titles cannot and will not be stripped because of this, simply because there are no grounds on which to do so. Your average punter from the East End will describe this matter as if the Supreme Court gathered to discuss how Rangers cheated and that we disgraced Scottish football. Refute their stupidity with hard facts.

The Supreme Court was deciding whether income tax was due on EBT payments. That is all. EBTs are not illegal. They are not even immoral. Celtic themselves used them, yet I don’t hear the outrage from their end.

I have also heard the comparison being drawn to that of Lance Armstrong, who won cycling titles after using banned performance enhancing drugs. Once again, that is nonsense. In cycling, there are rules in place against certain drugs, and breaking those rules can (and has) result in achievements being withdrawn.

However, I am yet to find a single rule from the SFA or SPFL which says EBTs cannot be used. But hey, Celtic fans are offended and their inferiority complex may be playing up; so, let’s just strip titles which were won, per the rules, fair and square.

Cries to strip Rangers titles during the EBT years has as much legal validity as me asking for Sergio Garcia concede his masters title since I didn’t manage to get a ticket to Augusta.

Yes, it is that ridiculous.

Rangers cannot and will not have titles stripped. No rules were broken.

58 comments:

  1. I agree that technically EBTs were legal and that the supreme court case was indeed to determine whether or not tax should have been paid and that should be clear to everyone. However the Scottish football authorities have already said they will be "considering the verdict" which leads me to believe that if they possibly can they will impose further punishment on us. We are the only show in town and it drives them all crazy.

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    1. Do you have links to articles where the SFA say this?

      I'm not calling you out, it's just that every article I've read had the the SFA say they'll consider the implications of the outcome of the court case, but have taken legal counsel and won't be punishing the club any more than they have.

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    2. The SFA aren't taking any further action but the SPFL said they're considering their options

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    3. The SPFL was only formed in 2013, they don't have any options to consider.

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  2. Good.

    The argument our opponents always make is that we signed players we couldn't afford. All we need is Sir David Murray to come out and say "if the players needed extra money I would have found it" and that kills the argument stone dead.

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    1. Since the article calls for people to refute stupidity with facts:

      Murray stated that using EBTs allowed rangers to sign players they otherwise could afford. The motivation was to beat Celtic and keep up his claim that "for every 5 they spend, we'll spend 10"

      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sir-david-murray-tells-craig-10305778

      Murray ruined rangers. If he hadn't spent recklessly, there would have been no huge debt burden, no selling the club for £1, no liquidation and no joining the lowest division.

      It's his fault. All of it. All of this.

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  3. Just laugh at the unwashed I love when they're 'pure ragin'

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  4. If Rangers were to lose all titles and trophies won at that time, as the article states, clubs who were relegated, promoted as well and other factors were taken into consideration would end up in a quagmire that the football authorities would end up in litigation that could and probably would bankrupting Scottish football.
    We only hear of Celtic talking about this as they would be hoping the championships, cups, etc. would be automatically handed to them. Not the case. If Rangers were deemed to have broken the rules, which as again highlighted in the article, the football authorities have already adjudged not to contravene any rules. The deduction of points just to give the rats from the east titles isn't the only club to benefit, as ALL clubs would have to have their points reinstated, in fact Rangers would in effect have zero points for every season, meaning we didn't exist. All teams knocked out cup competitions would have to be given byes, as the club wouldn't exist there too.
    So it becomes a complex matter, who would compensate all the clubs relegated? The teams who took their place?
    If there is a further enquiry to be undertaken, these points and other points made by more learned men in support of Rangers and dare I say, the associations that run football in Scotland.

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  5. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  6. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just ignorant as opposed to being willfully ignorant.

    No one is claiming that Rangers' footballing rule breaking was on account of them using an EBT, so your argument is based on a fallacy.

    Let me shine some light on this for you. In Scotland, when you register a player it is a requirement that you register all payments that the player will receive for footballing activities (this is why Celtic were not investigated by the SPL for Junninho's EBT, as it was not for footballing activities).

    In Rangers' case they did not register the EBT payments and therefore, their players were not properly registered.

    In the SFA rules it says that you are not allowed to field an unregistered player and if you do so, then any game they play will be forfeited 3-0.

    Surely, you must see that the rules need to be applied if there is to be any sporting integrity in Scottish football? Not only that, the people at the SFA who were complicit in this whole debacle have to be cleared out.

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    1. #obsessed......away and get a wash ya dobber

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    2. I should have added an explanation of why the supreme court ruling is relevant to what I just said.

      Basically, the SPL had Lord Nimmo Smith investigate Rangers' use of EBTs. At the time of this investigation the courts had ruled in favour of Rangers and had stated that they were loans and not payments and as a result where not subject to PAYE tax.

      As a result LNS ruled that Rangers did not have to declare the EBTs as they were not payments. He also stated that no sporting advantage was gained because any other club could have done the same without breaking tax laws.

      However, the supreme court has now ruled that Rangers' use of EBTs were payments and thus subject to PAYE tax. Therefore, LNS verdict is based on a false premise because no other club could have done it, thus Rangers did gain a sporting advantage. Not only that, they should have been declared to the SFA when players were registered as they were in fact payments for footballing activities.

      This is why fans of other clubs want the matter revisited.

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    3. Based on the standard of debate on here I think it is safe to say that my early assumption of ignorance was correct.

      On that note I shall gladly depart as I know all to well how difficult it is to free fools from the chains they revere.

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    4. A player registered with the SFA cannot, years later, be deemed not to be registered. No matter how often Liewell and his TYPE complaint.

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    5. If what Robert McNair is correct, I don't assume it is, but as I have stated I have no experience of corporate law or the flexible rules governing Scottish football. What I do say in respect to his comments on the 3 - 0 ruling on points awarded etc. there would be no way possible for the football authorities to do this with all teams in the leagues on those years.
      As I have said before as an example; if we beat Falkirk four times that season and they were relegated, then they should be awarded 12 points with the goal difference adjusted, but we beat St. Mirren twice, drew once and lost once, Rangers gained only 7 points, therefor St. Mirren are due nine more points as the drawn game is awarded 3 - 0 as said and the goal difference adjusted accordingly. What if Falkirk had been relegated by one point only?
      That is why it opens a realistic can of worms, snakes, anything that crawls.
      They can take the titles away but the years in question the league must be dissolved and eradicated from history .

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  7. Unfortunately I believe we will lose titles and trophies. For the simple reason that celtic (and others)will demand it and I think we're aware of the influence they've had in recent years. I agree with the point BT makes, how come everyone non Rangers has the definitive knowledge that the players involved in ebt's absolutely wouldn't have been at Ibrox without them (ebt's)? So Barry Ferguson for example would have left?
    I think if you take their logic to it's ultimate conclusion then, if you are able to pay your players more than others can pay theirs that gives you an unfair advantage, therefore should all players in all teams be paid the same ? I also wonder about the tax avoiding scheme that several Celtic players were reported to have taken part in, with the loss making film company, who were subsequently told they had to pay the tax, but there is no moral outrage in their direction.

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    1. I can make the same point another way. The ex players can help by saying "we'd still have signed for Rangers on less money" although it's doubtful any of them will want to go public on EBTs when they might get hit with a tax bill.

      Also, on the point our unwashed friend makes, the SPL have already ruled on the fact Rangers made administrative errors and they paid a fine for this.

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    2. Rangers didn't declare the EBT payments to the SFA when registering players. They did that deliberately over a number of years.

      If the players would have signed for less money, why bankrupt the club by paying them more? Why not pay them less?

      You won't answer the question.

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    3. I think the difference is Celtic were up front abou it and didnae try to hide it from Hector, the Sfa and everybody else. EBTs are legal so long as they are implemented as they were intended, as loans, trusts etc; but our board were using them to pay players tax free sums off the books so to speak. I'm of the opinion that titles won't get stripped, but can't say I am confident about it, when all is said and done it is serious money and a huge embarrassment whatever way you slice it. But that's just my opinion, you don't have to like it.

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    4. Most clubs and indeed most Companies that used EBT's to reduce the tax bill of their employees did so under advice on the assumption that EBT's were legal at the time, which they were. Like most tax loop holes, when HMRC identified the amount of Tax lost to the Exchequer they made moves to have the loophole changed. People do not go out to work to pay extortionate taxes and as a matter of course look with their Accountants and with their Companies at how they can legally avoid paying too much tax.

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  8. What was really cheating was the falsifying of gate receipts throughout the 50's , 60's and 70's , when other teams in the league were meant to receive half the home teams gate money . Older supporters throughout Scotland know all about this , Stevie Chalmers even mentions it in his book which was serialised in the papers a few years back . This was gaining an unfair advantage and should be punished by the loss of 9 titles and a European cup !

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    1. Exactly Jimbo, their hypocrisy is despicable.

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    2. What a mockery you Celtic lot are do you forget when your lot came home from Europe. With a bag full of money!! Arseholes

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    3. Yo make me laugh you lot,do you forget Celtic with the bag of money coming home from Europe.now Lennon being investigated and a few others people in glass houses etc etc

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  9. Yes tax is now due. So once the tax man gets his money it's all good. And with stripping titles they need to prove the players only came to rangers for the money... I doubt any player will say so especially when so many from that era are rangers men through and through

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  10. Maybe Celtic should be stripped of there titles for the last few years if Desmond gets found guilty of money laundering etc, after all there winning things using the dirty money that he's giving them 😂

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  11. If only the authorities were as determined to bring the law to bear on all the insitutional child abuse that has gone on in the UK for decades. We know one club that needs thorough investigation on that matter.

    And I applaud the poster BT for calling our old owner by his rightful name, Sir David Murray. I will never hate Sir David. I actually feel for the man, because there's no doubt that he loves Rangers and always has loved Rangers. He was badly advised. He's not a lawyer, but took advice from lawyers. It proved to be the worst goddamn advice our club could ever have followed. But it was Craig Whyte who fucked our club, not him. Would I rather have SDM back at Ibrox instead of King? Any day of the week.

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  12. Scum and you're laughing about what your club has done?
    You deserve everything you get.
    More embarrassment to come scumbags.

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  13. Did Dermot use his millions he saved when he became a tax exile to buy players for Celtic. Being a tax exile is a form of tax avoidance not illegal but morally wrong. He even stole it from the mother country should be unacceptable for Celtic supporters .look up what tax exile means.when your at it look up Dermot Desmond WIKIPEDIA and paragraphs on the Glackin report down to Celtic mist.

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    1. The Irish Government have been trying to establish that Dermot was evading Tax for many years now and have so far failed to prove it, (even though they are pretty certain he was guilty of Tax Evasion, so it will not be an easy job for them to prove this. Then the Scottish Football Association would need to investigate and prove that Desmond used funds to sign players that ended up winning them titles, not something that is ever going to happen with the current Scottish Football Association. Of course we could go back to the establishment of that particular club and do a thorough investigation and inevitably we would find matters of a dubious nature however in a country that failed miserably to fully investigate the goings on of Torbett, his friend Saville and others associated with that particular club I have serious doubts that there is either the will or the motivation to do a thorough investigation on that particular club!

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  14. In the interests of balance and knowledgeable debate l'll respond to a number of inaccuracies in the article:
    1 Celtic fans do not want the titles, the call is to strip them not re-award them. You are correct re-awarding them is far too complex so they have to be kept with Rangers or expunged. Those are the only two options in the debate.
    2. You state EBTs are not illegal. This is the same argument as saying it's not illegal to drive a car. If driven in the wrong way (e.g. 50mph in a 30) so it depends how the vehicle is driven. Rangers used this tax vehicle in the wrong way I.e. It's intended for loans to employees (moving house / relocating etc etc etc) the court decided rangers used it to avoid income tax, hence using it in this way is illegal.
    3. David Murray stated under oath at the Whyte trial "the EBTs allowed us to sign players we otherwise could not have afforded". Search #whytetrial it's all there. Also search you tube for a video just last season with BBC interviewing Alex McLeish during which he said precisely the same thing.
    4. The other argument is that Rangers wouldn't have signed X, Y and Z. This is not true, rather its that they would have signed X, Y, or Z I.e. They couldn't afford them all, and it's the strength of a squad that wins leagues and goes on extended cup runs.
    5. All clubs have different earning potential. The is no argument if Rangers earn more money from gate receipts, sell more strips, produce more academy players and sell on for £10m (Hutton) these are all legitimate sources of commercial income. Avoiding paying income tax is not the same as generating extra revenue. Costs and revenue are completely separate financial issues in any company.

    These are the central tents of the argument against Rangers. I'm not looking to argue or wind up just state the facts from the other side. In any negotiation you should always know exactly what the other side are thinking and I share this as your site is respected and intelligent whilst so many others (on both sides) have moon howlers who can never see how others would think as they do.

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    1. Ceptic fans DO want the titles that's why they are complaining.

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  15. Okay so the big tax case is decided. We lost that, fine, you strip the titles again fine. But no one then gets presented with the title for those years we did come out on top (look at the records 2 league titles BEHIND celtic in that time period, so much for unfair advantage). What I mean by this is Celtic would not automatically gain those championships, precident fact is UEFA CHAMPIONS LEAGUE 1992/93 Marseille beat AC Milan 1-0 to lift the trophey, however Marseille are deemed to have used financial aid to other clubs to "throw" matches. Being found guilty they are stripped of the UCL trophey and the match declared VOID, so no winner. The same thing would, if the SFA/SPFL have the balls to do it, happen here as well. Those 4 seasons would be voided and no winner entered. This verdict only really effects the old company and will have no effect of Rangers now. Financially it will be put to Murray and those who benefitted from the tax avoidance EBT's (not illegal during the period). Had they evaded paying tax then we would have no leg to staaand on. Simple terms that simple people will always struggle to understand.

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  16. The clamour from fans from other clubs for Rangers to have titles stripped is to be expected, however for Celtic to have come out immediately with a statement to put pressure on the SFA & SPFL to review the situation is beyond the pale.
    As you rightly point out EBT's are not illegal and no court has found Rangers guilty of tax evasion. It is a considerable leap of imagination to suggest that through the use of EBT's Rangers were able to sign players they would have otherwise not have been able to afford. There is no evidence to back this up.
    That said however I do worry about Doncaster and the SPFL especially when you think back to the deal they tried to strike that Rangers could remain in the SPL if we gave up those titles - and this before any sort of court ruling.
    There used to be a sense that the Old Firm had an unspoken alliance in that they needed each other - that both thrived off the intense rivalry that in turn also propped the rest of Scottish football up. If this ever was the case it is certainly not so today. Celtic's influence in having Rangers relegated to the lowest division and now this push for further punishment has led me to now believe that Celtic do want to crush Rangers - to destroy our football club so that we will never be a rival to them again. I think Celtic's plan is that if they crush Rangers once and for all it will strengthen their argument that they have outgrown Scottish football and it will make it easier for them to gain entry into the English league or a European Super League as Scotland's only representative.
    If there is any attempt to remove titles then Rangers must resist - but hey should also say enough is enough and walk away from the poisonous cesspit that Scottish football has become. Call Lallwell's bluff and attempt to join the English league first - and if we have to join at the very lowest level then so be it.

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  17. Deflektor Screens to Maximum! Peados! State Aid! Stevie Chalmers! Fucking listen to yourselves. You all know you cheated for over a decade and now the truth is finally out and the SFA can't hide you anymore. Tick tock, you're time's running out. We're coming for you and this time there's no carpet for you to sweep this under.

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    1. Your despicable side gained an unfair advantage during the first world war. Your conscientious objectors remained in the celtic team, playing against fourteen year-old boys in the Rangers and Hearts teams, while our players went to fight and get killed. Therefore the four titles won by your side during this period should be taken away from you. You are unpatriotic, poppy hating scum and are the club who should have titles taken away.

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    2. You dispicable moron, before you make statements like above you should check your facts. During 1914 - 18, 13 celtic players served in the British Army of which 2 died, 27 former celtic players served of which 8 died including a VC winner. 10 Rangers players served 0 deaths, 19 former rangers players served and tragically there were fatalities. These were brave men ALL of them irrespective of their Team and to have a low life like you try and score cheap points using a war is a disgrace. Many times the 36 th Ulster Division and the 16 th Irish Division fought and died side by side and I can guess what those brave Ulster men would have thought of you.

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    3. I have read that what happened is the way I described it. However it's possible that I may have been misled. I assumed that nobody would distort the facts on such a terrible war. I have read in the past that was what happened and that the former celtic player who won the vc was given a round of applause when he walked onto the pitch at Ibrox on a matchday, but wasn't invited onto the pitch at parkhead. I suspect that what you claim is wrong, but I will research this.

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    4. There's a website that gives details of the players and former players who gave their lives during the first world war. When I tried to click on celtic, nothing came up. The only site I could get statistics for celtic was Wikipedia, but that's not a very reliable source. I know that a professional footballer couldn't voluntarily fight for his country, without permission from his club. It has been alleged that celtic didn't give permission for their best players to join up and so gained an advantage on the pitch. Even if your correct about the number of celtic fringe players who fought during the first world war, which I doubt, they had a much higher average age than other teams in the league. They should be unofficial results, just as Rangers seven titles won during the second world war are unofficial results.

      It is proven beyond all doubt, that celtic lied about their attendances in the past and gained a financial advantage by doing this. The hypocrisy of the celtic support is sickening.

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  18. Well it's jUstinov aso I expected we were never going to win the big tax case the decision was taken a long time ago not to strip us of any titles now all our enemies are jumping on the band wagon trying to stir the shxt let sleeping dogs lie the etb were used by the old co the only reasons the others to be striped is as a distraction from their own shortcomings or should I say wrongdoings cause I believe they have all cheated the authorities the world over every league and every team have done wrong the only diffrence we were found out which brought the old company down and now they areally all panicking

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  19. They weren't being paid more, they would receive more if they weren't taxed. The top line would be the same the bottom line would be different. Do you see ISA's , saving bonds as immoral? Is a dodgy film company scheme ok?

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  20. The level of delusion and stupidity in these comments is truly mind-blowing. The way the EBTs were used was illegal. The hidden side letters are further evidence of the cheating. No matter what the lickspittles at the SFA may say. Your dodgy ex chairman and manager have both confirmed - the former under oath - that this scheme allowed the old club to purchase players it may not otherwise been able to afford. Open and shut case. And for the record I don't want your tainted trophies. Asterisks in their place will sufficiently denote the cheating. Enjoy the rest of your journey - I for one am loving it!

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  21. Can I just say I'm flattered by all the interest shown in Ibrox Noise, a website for Rangers supporters, by so called Celtic fans and fans of other clubs.

    I for one would never visit a fans site of any other club, especially Celtic, because I simply do not care what their fans have to say about their club. Does not interest me in the slightest. I only care about Rangers.

    I guess that shows why we are the biggest football club in Scotland.

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  22. If there is NOT a single rule within the SFA or SPFL rule books about EBT's then they cannot do anything about it. They cannot make their own rules up NOW. I was at all the Rangers cup finals at Hampden Park, if we have the cups taken away from us, do all the Rangers fans get their ticket money back? It all too silly.

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  23. EBTS are not illegal. the way Rangers used them to pay players without paying the tax was. the side letters that they hid from the sfa & hmrc prove that they acted illegally. If they though they were doing nothing wrong, why hide the side letters?
    Because they never registered players with the side letters correctly they broke SFA rules.
    Any game with those players should be given to the opposition as a 3-0 win.
    Well that's what happens in every other league & in Europe. Remember the polish team got kicked out of the CL after humping Celtic because of 1 player being incorrectly registered.
    But we live in Scotland so nothing to see hear, move on 😂

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  24. Dave king clearly thinks that Rangers got a sporting advantage through the use of ebt's. I know you hang on his every word so take a wee read.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2161850/Rangers-crisis-Dave-King-apologises.html

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  25. Just did. Just goes to show you can't trust a word that comes out of his mouth. The South Africa judge was right. He's a glib & shameless liar who shouldn't be believed unless there is supporting evidence

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  26. As Jorg Cooper has rightly posted,there are far more serious matters badly in need of thorough investigation and EBTs are mere trifles in comparison. I won't be holding my breath though for justice for the victims.

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  27. Regarding the stripping of titles--Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United, have shown the hatred and spite that exists in their clubs,they were front runners to get Rangers down to the lower divisions and then kick them
    Now they want to strip Rangers of titles, they demean themselves and their clubs by suggesting this--and for heavens sake don;t even suggest it is for sporting integrity, surely they don't have the brass neck to say that is the reason--the reason is out of pure spite or jealousy

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  28. Never heard so much pish in 50 years, the Simpson trial was more decisive than EBT saga as it was a one off verdict but with Rangers the mighty TAX guys kept going back to court until they got the result they were after.

    There was nothing knowingly carried out that could be described as illegal at any time and was implemented on the advice of people who should have known better but the fact is it is that the Scottish media and other clubs still cant resist a kick at us

    I agree with the Club 1872 approach cause we are now out the mire, sobered up and ready for the battle

    All parties involved in this cowardly and malicious attack should take a minute to realise they are setting a precedent and as such we will be perfectly within our rights and be perfectly entitled to demand similar investigations into the many many acts of favouritism and downright skullduggery which has taken place in Scottish football by the Scottish Footbal Authorities along with too many clubs to mention over the last generation

    Its easy to try to play the big man against a drunk man but we are drunk no more AND WILL NOT SURRENDER because we are simply not made that way, The fat man fae Sport Direct recently learned that lesson and he could buy and sell every other shit club in Scotland

    BRING IT ON!! WATP

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  29. Its hightime Chris Sutton winds his neck in and any other big got out their how can you punish employeeso for something that was above their pay grade it was this issue that brought down the old company however it wasn't that long ago celtic were an hour from bankruptcy when saved by Fergus mcann we didn't be little them a football title is won on the pitch not by the financial clout that a player earns so the only way you can claim we cheated is by playing players we could not afford at the time and this has all came to light we were brought down by a bunch of unscrupulous business men it's high time we stopedid raking over old coals for the sake of the game unless celtic and the rest have something to hide and are worried the h.m.r.c are coming to call on them hense the distraction by claiming we should be stripped and ifor the authorites believe them then it shows the distaste their is for the blue half of Glasgow a nd it shows that corruption is rife through out the scotish game a decision was made on this matter and that ishe that . I often what would have happened if we had won the appeal not that was ever going to happen cause the taxman does not like to loose it's hightime this was laid to rest once and for all rangers are a honorable club and a fair play club and 90% off theiron rivals wanted them kicked out of footbaLl all together never mind dropped to the Forth division so all the bigots should wind their necks in at the moment their behaving like spoilt children all the best to Pedro and the boys let's get behind the team this year

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  30. Don't wait on a possible stripping of the titles,Dave King should just come out and give them to Celtic,they are so pitifully desperate. The amount of hatred directed at The Rangers is shocking,actually quite disturbing.A poll taken by the Scotsman have statements from all the spl suporters clubs, but the ones that historically show the greatest resentment through jealousy, celtic,aberdeen and dundee utd stand out as the main protagonists .We will still be the most successful, best supported and proud club this country has ever seen and will continue to be so.This topic is all these morons discuss, their interest in their own clubs are secondary to having a go at the biggest club in Scotland.Without us they have nothing. WATP..

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